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-   -   The Case for the .45 ACP (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=458486)

gpond 03-24-2010 08:32 AM
The Case for the .45 ACP
 

The Case for the .45 ACP
By Jim Higginbotham
The .45 ACP is not a very powerful cartridge. Now that may come as a shock to those who are thinking "if this is an argument in favor of the .45 auto then I'd hate to see the other side". It might come as even more of a shock for those who recognize me as a vocal - if not infamous - supporter of the cartridge for self defense. I start my treatment of this subject this way because too often we tend to exaggerate a bit when developing positions in the eternal debate of which cartridge is best for a given mission.

...
more:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/jh_45acp.htm

Twisted Avatar 03-24-2010 09:12 AM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Trooper Mark Coates shot his assailant 5 times center mass with a .357 Magnum, only to be killed with a .22 mini revolver.


Did a little digging on that and found the site to explain how he went down

A lucky shot in a Armpit and the bullet tumbled

http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-troo...-hunter-coates



Musing I found a FBI PDF talking about how no bullet can stop an attacker that is determined to do harm.


ADVISORY: GRAPHIC MORGE PICTURES

http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf

SWRichmond 03-24-2010 09:52 AM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Takeaway: the last slide.

"Shot placement is everything in a gunfight
and always the key to stopping a threat
effectively."

There is no super bullet, super gun, super any other crap. Skill Skill Skill. Get your butts to the range and shoot. Wear your gun out, then buy another one. Shoot shoot shoot. Arguments about ammo selection are mostly a waste of time.

ruprick 03-24-2010 10:27 AM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
To fully respect the limitations and capabilities of a handgun.....take one out and hunt whitetail deer...or any critter of similar size.

Around here (MI) deer are about the same size as humans....150 - 200 lbs.

You can empty a full revolver or magazine (from a 1911) into the deer and unless you hit 2 lungs, heart or central nervous system.....you are going to be tracking for a while.

Even the mighty 44 Mag, at times does not drop deer dead in their tracks unless it is straight through the heart. I've put solid hits on double lungs...and it is still a 100 yard afair.

The only gun I can say that makes deer fall right over on their sides nearly 100% of the time are high powered rifles and slug shot guns.....and the rifle seems far more devestating than the slug gun in my experience.

From my experience - I agree - shot placement is king. I figure in a gun fight....even solid hits are going to still allow the bad guy to fight on for a little while.....

If you can manage 1 of your shots to the head.....try to make it happen.....also try to populate that chest....might catch the heart.....zero blood pressure = quick end.

Gun fights will not turn out like you see on T.V. - think about how it works on deer - and that is as close to reality as I can imagine.

smullen 03-24-2010 10:32 AM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWRichmond (Post 2241175)
Takeaway: the last slide.

"Shot placement is everything in a gunfight
and always the key to stopping a threat
effectively."

There is no super bullet, super gun, super any other crap. Skill Skill Skill. Get your butts to the range and shoot. Wear your gun out, then buy another one. Shoot shoot shoot. Arguments about ammo selection are mostly a waste of time.
Thank you...

I have my prefs, but I would not even argue that my .40 is better than someone elses .45 or 9mm...

For me, I want whatever I feel I can be the most accurate with and has the most knockdown power...

There are other factors, but those are my 1st two considerations...

Walter Mitty 03-24-2010 10:32 AM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
You can do everything right and still lose. (5 center mass hits looks like everything was done right to me)

You can do everything wrong and still "win". Shooting a dinky .22. First shot into officers vest. Getting hit with 5 rounds of .357 mag in the torso/chest.
Then getting a lucky hit on your opponent.

There are no guarantees in a fight.

That is just the nature of things.

Twisted Avatar 03-24-2010 10:54 AM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Mitty (Post 2241251)
You can do everything right and still lose. (5 center mass hits looks like everything was done right to me)

You can do everything wrong and still "win". Shooting a dinky .22. First shot into officers vest. Getting hit with 5 rounds of .357 mag in the torso/chest.
Then getting a lucky hit on your opponent.

There are no guarantees in a fight.

That is just the nature of things.

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket."

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4".

25. You can't miss fast enough to win.

Heimdhal 03-24-2010 11:20 AM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Case for the .45 is simple...its a .45 and its pure awesome!


Ha, in all seriousness though, the OP and susbsequent post are correct. Ruprick, as he tends to do, nailed it pretty good as well. Though I think deer (and animals in general) have a higher resistance to pain and more efficient production/use of adrenaline, since they are bred to be prey, more or less and have adapted to such.

Still, you're absolutley right and plenty of people DONT die after being shot with handguns. Even a lot of self defense cases, the attacker lives after, though is taken out of the fight, so to speak. We just only hear the ones where they died being reported, cause its makes for "better" news.

tulsamal 03-24-2010 11:52 AM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
The only gun I can say that makes deer fall right over on their sides nearly 100% of the time are high powered rifles and slug shot guns.....and the rifle seems far more devestating than the slug gun in my experience.
I signed up for the US Army early in 1985. I was scheduled to go to Basic Training in AUG 85. In that situation, you try to get things "done" before your duty date. I was 23 at that time and still didn't have a deer and/or big game rifle. So I decided to buy one and to get the caliber I had wanted since I read about it in Gun Digest back in the 60's. Remington was selling the Model 700 Classic in a different caliber ever year and 1985 was the .350 Remington Magnum's turn. I figured that cartridge would be a great deer cartridge and could do the job if I was ever lucky enough to go elk hunting.

It came, I scoped it with a German Zeiss 4x, got my reloading gear, and went off to Ft. Bliss for my training. After it was over and I got assigned to Schofield Barracks, I started load development on the rifle. I eventually settled on the Sierra 225 grain PBTSP Game King. With a max load of IMR 4064, the rifle was accurate and powerful enough to do whatever you wanted to do.

Once I got out of the Army and back to Oklahoma, I started using it to hunt deer. It was the only rifle I used for about ten years for deer hunting. And it worked great. Much better than a high velocity rifle like a .270 or 7mm RM. Less meat damage, high penetration. I could take the shot from any angle and get full penetration, a good exit wound (but not excessive), good blood trail, etc.

Here comes the part that is relevant. I was surprised by the deer I killed over the years. The bullet always expanded nicely. The internal damage was substantial and many times my field dressing made me wonder how death could be anything other than instantaneous. But it never was. Every deer I killed ran at least 50 yards before "getting the word" that they were dead.

One example. I saw a nice four point buck out in a meadow about a hundred yards away. He was slowly moving and I carefully moved along the edge of the treeline looking for an opening and a tree to lean against for the shot. I finally fired when he was 80-90 yards away. I aimed just behind the front leg and slightly lower than the midpoint. At the shot, I was momentarily confused. The shot fired but the "flash" I remember in my scope wasn't the deer body but the deer feet! One second he was standing there, the next second all four feet were straight up in the air. He somehow did some kind of sideways roll at impact. (Another guy was watching me through a spotting scope and he came down later to tell me how he saw the same thing.)

But.... after the feet were up in the air, that deer got up and took off. Crossed a small creek and got all the way across the next meadow on the other side. I found him right at the edge of that meadow and the woodline.

Same basic thing that happens every time I shoot a deer, regardless of caliber. You hit them, they run, they get about 50 yards, then they fall over, kick a few times, and die. If they were a big guy with a machete, they could chop your head off and lick the blood off the blade before they died themselves!

Sometimes you shoot a human and they just mentally "give up." Those are your quick stops. They mentally realize they are mortally wounded and they lay down and die. But the real crazies ones want to do as much damage as possible before they go out. Be prepared for that!

Quote:
You can do everything right and still lose. (5 center mass hits looks like everything was done right to me)
Yeah, but that shooting was a fluke. Officer was using the most effective handgun load available at the time. (357 Magnum, 125 grain JHP.) But he fired at the bad guy after being knocked to the ground. So he was firing up. Which took his "center mass" shots into the big fat guys gut. A far bigger than average gut. And the bullets expanded and delivered all of their energy into the guy but none of them got deep enough to get to the vital organs. (Sort of like what happened in the Miami shootout that resulted in new handgun bullets with deeper penetration.) If the officer had been standing straight upright and delivered those shots into the chest, they would have worked. I guess the lesson is don't lie on the ground and shoot upward into sumo wrestler sized guys and their guts!

Quote:
There is no super bullet, super gun, super any other crap. Skill Skill Skill. Get your butts to the range and shoot. Wear your gun out, then buy another one. Shoot shoot shoot. Arguments about ammo selection are mostly a waste of time.
I agree with your basic premise. But I think it is worthwhile to point out to newcomers that ammo does make a difference. I'm not going to carry a gun every day and load it with the cheapest FMJ I can find. Or even the cheapest HP's. I'm only 48 and I've seen handgun bullets get better and better. I wouldn't carry FMJ for CCW in anything except a .25 ACP. Once you get to 9mm and above, I will agree that _bullet selection being equal_ the choice between 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP really doesn't matter. Picking a gun that fits your hand and your carry method and which feels good _to you_ when you shoot it are the important thing. But that is _bullet selection being equal_.

If you are going to carry a gun, carry the good stuff in it. Let all that bullet development since the Miami shootout be your friend. Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, XTP, DPX, etc. No handgun is all that powerful so I at least want enough certain penetration to get to the vital organs even under some extreme situations. When I carry a .44 Special, I use the DPX loads. When I carry a 9mm, I use the Winchester Ranger SXT +P+ 127 grain load. In .357 SIG, I carry the Air Marshal load, Speer Gold Dots, 125 grain JHP's. All of those will "do the job" but remember the story above about the deer!! Unless you get lucky enough to hit the nervous system, mayhem is going to continue after your shots. At least for a few seconds and maybe even for several minutes.

Gregg

SilverCity 03-24-2010 12:41 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Good discussion.

Results vary widely with regard to handgun effectiveness. My CCW instructor tells of a incident where a perp on meds took six rounds center-of-mass from a 357 magnum revolver, as well as a few 38spl hps and still failed to go down. He had to be wrestled to the ground by two men and his weapon (hatchet) wrenched from him. He died on the way to the hospital.

Then there was the veteran police officer shot once in the stomach with a 22lr and died of shock in the ambulance. Witnesses claim he was screaming over and over, "I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die!" and sure enough he did.

Never overestimate the effectiveness of your weapon. Carry the best possible ammunition and keep shooting until they go down.

Walter Mitty 03-24-2010 12:58 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
But ,what if you "are" on the ground and have to fire into a Sumo wrestler size guys gut?
The fight will be what it will be. You do not get to choose.
The officer did evertything "right".
But got hit by a "lucky shot" from a .22

That is why many trainers (Gabe Suarez for one) advocate modern service pistols with high capacity magazines. And shoot them to the ground.

As one of Suarez's instructors said after some force-on-force training,
"No one ever died by having to many BB's in their gun".

Maybe the guy would have lived had he been using a modern service pistol and could have kept pouring
rounds into the guy. Maybe not. We will never know.

teedub31 03-24-2010 01:29 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 2241246)
To fully respect the limitations and capabilities of a handgun.....take one out and hunt whitetail deer...or any critter of similar size.

Around here (MI) deer are about the same size as humans....150 - 200 lbs.

You can empty a full revolver or magazine (from a 1911) into the deer and unless you hit 2 lungs, heart or central nervous system.....you are going to be tracking for a while.

Even the mighty 44 Mag, at times does not drop deer dead in their tracks unless it is straight through the heart. I've put solid hits on double lungs...and it is still a 100 yard afair.

The only gun I can say that makes deer fall right over on their sides nearly 100% of the time are high powered rifles and slug shot guns.....and the rifle seems far more devestating than the slug gun in my experience.

From my experience - I agree - shot placement is king. I figure in a gun fight....even solid hits are going to still allow the bad guy to fight on for a little while.....

If you can manage 1 of your shots to the head.....try to make it happen.....also try to populate that chest....might catch the heart.....zero blood pressure = quick end.

Gun fights will not turn out like you see on T.V. - think about how it works on deer - and that is as close to reality as I can imagine.
Ruprick your assesment is spot on with the deer and the knock down power of shot guns and rifles. The key here is the hydrostatic shock caused by the energy at impact. Those guns have it pistols do not. The energy transfered into the central nervous sustem is what drops those deer. Center mass on a deer will not produce enough shock on a deer for a quick put down. High shoulder is another story. Center mass on the human transfers alot of ft/lbs directly into the spine.

As another poster said in talking about the cop the position of the center mass shot is crucial. While I like your comparisson of deer/human, I see the upright human stance reacting much differently then the four legged stnace of the deer. The man shot is head on, while the deer is from the side if you get my drift. Gotta think that plays a big factor in how anything would react.

Heimdhal 03-24-2010 01:30 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
It goes back to shot placement. Put one through the medulla oblongata and its instant lights out, no matter how big they are. If the brain cant tell the rest of the body to function, even in a panicked, drug induced frezy, they arent going to be able to do much. Sure muscle still stays "active" a few seconds afterwards, but its doubtfull it will be of any use.

It seems to be a legal "no-no" to practice for or use head shots, but putting a round through the tip of the nose is one of the most sure fire ways to end the fight. Just be prepared for the frenzy that will insue between the lawyers, media and public about your "super assasin skills of doom".


EDIT:

Also, NEVER EVER EVER underestimate a beings desire to live. Its a powerfull motivator, espcialy if they are living only to kill you.

Twisted Avatar 03-24-2010 02:12 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 2241449)
Good discussion.

Results vary widely with regard to handgun effectiveness. My CCW instructor tells of a incident where an perp on meds took six rounds center-of-mass from a 357 magnum revolver, as well as a few 38spl hps and still failed to go down. He had to be wrestled to the ground by two men and his weapon (hatchet) wrenched from him. He died on the way to the hospital.

Then there was the veteran police officer shot once in the stomach with a 22lr and died of shock in the ambulance. Witnesses claim he was screaming over and over, "I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die!" and sure enough he did.

Never overestimate the effectiveness of your weapon. Carry the best possible ammunition and keep shooting until they go down.

Best reason for making sure your side arms carries high cap magazines

T

tulsamal 03-24-2010 02:19 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
But ,what if you "are" on the ground and have to fire into a Sumo wrestler size guys gut?
The .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP was "the gold standard" back in the 1980's when it came to police guns. (It's what I had in my personal .357 at home as well although my house has a six inch barrel.) But the design of those 125 grain JHP's is dated. They were designed first and foremost to expand. And they did. And usually that wasn't a problem since the .357 is a powerful round and any kind of chest hit would result in penetration that was "deep enough" to hit the good stuff. In this particular case, the bullets hit a whole bunch of non-vital highly liquid flesh first. So they expanded fully and then stopped.

The same exact shots would be different with loads that meet today's FBI standards. 14-16" of penetration would have put the rounds into the chest cavity. This sort of thing is exactly the reason I carry the most modern ammunition. A DPX or Gold Dot driven at those velocities would have taken the guy down. Of course even the old ammo would have worked if the LEO had had time to realize what was happening and shifted his aim elsewhere. I don't actually like pelvic shots myself but it would have been better than in the gut. Or shift upward and go for the head. Things happen fast and you react the way you've been trained. The LEO was trained to hit center mass and keep shooting. Maybe he would have been better served if trained for two at center mass and then one headshot if the guy is still attacking? (That is an option for civilians. I think PD's would find that training to be a PR nightmare!)

Gregg

Usury 03-24-2010 04:18 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 2241369)
I signed up for the US Army early in 1985. I was scheduled to go to Basic Training in AUG 85. In that situation, you try to get things "done" before your duty date. I was 23 at that time and still didn't have a deer and/or big game rifle. So I decided to buy one and to get the caliber I had wanted since I read about it in Gun Digest back in the 60's. Remington was selling the Model 700 Classic in a different caliber ever year and 1985 was the .350 Remington Magnum's turn. I figured that cartridge would be a great deer cartridge and could do the job if I was ever lucky enough to go elk hunting.

It came, I scoped it with a German Zeiss 4x, got my reloading gear, and went off to Ft. Bliss for my training. After it was over and I got assigned to Schofield Barracks, I started load development on the rifle. I eventually settled on the Sierra 225 grain PBTSP Game King. With a max load of IMR 4064, the rifle was accurate and powerful enough to do whatever you wanted to do.

Once I got out of the Army and back to Oklahoma, I started using it to hunt deer. It was the only rifle I used for about ten years for deer hunting. And it worked great. Much better than a high velocity rifle like a .270 or 7mm RM. Less meat damage, high penetration. I could take the shot from any angle and get full penetration, a good exit wound (but not excessive), good blood trail, etc.

Here comes the part that is relevant. I was surprised by the deer I killed over the years. The bullet always expanded nicely. The internal damage was substantial and many times my field dressing made me wonder how death could be anything other than instantaneous. But it never was. Every deer I killed ran at least 50 yards before "getting the word" that they were dead.

One example. I saw a nice four point buck out in a meadow about a hundred yards away. He was slowly moving and I carefully moved along the edge of the treeline looking for an opening and a tree to lean against for the shot. I finally fired when he was 80-90 yards away. I aimed just behind the front leg and slightly lower than the midpoint. At the shot, I was momentarily confused. The shot fired but the "flash" I remember in my scope wasn't the deer body but the deer feet! One second he was standing there, the next second all four feet were straight up in the air. He somehow did some kind of sideways roll at impact. (Another guy was watching me through a spotting scope and he came down later to tell me how he saw the same thing.)

But.... after the feet were up in the air, that deer got up and took off. Crossed a small creek and got all the way across the next meadow on the other side. I found him right at the edge of that meadow and the woodline.

Same basic thing that happens every time I shoot a deer, regardless of caliber. You hit them, they run, they get about 50 yards, then they fall over, kick a few times, and die. If they were a big guy with a machete, they could chop your head off and lick the blood off the blade before they died themselves!

Sometimes you shoot a human and they just mentally "give up." Those are your quick stops. They mentally realize they are mortally wounded and they lay down and die. But the real crazies ones want to do as much damage as possible before they go out. Be prepared for that!



Yeah, but that shooting was a fluke. Officer was using the most effective handgun load available at the time. (357 Magnum, 125 grain JHP.) But he fired at the bad guy after being knocked to the ground. So he was firing up. Which took his "center mass" shots into the big fat guys gut. A far bigger than average gut. And the bullets expanded and delivered all of their energy into the guy but none of them got deep enough to get to the vital organs. (Sort of like what happened in the Miami shootout that resulted in new handgun bullets with deeper penetration.) If the officer had been standing straight upright and delivered those shots into the chest, they would have worked. I guess the lesson is don't lie on the ground and shoot upward into sumo wrestler sized guys and their guts!



I agree with your basic premise. But I think it is worthwhile to point out to newcomers that ammo does make a difference. I'm not going to carry a gun every day and load it with the cheapest FMJ I can find. Or even the cheapest HP's. I'm only 48 and I've seen handgun bullets get better and better. I wouldn't carry FMJ for CCW in anything except a .25 ACP. Once you get to 9mm and above, I will agree that _bullet selection being equal_ the choice between 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP really doesn't matter. Picking a gun that fits your hand and your carry method and which feels good _to you_ when you shoot it are the important thing. But that is _bullet selection being equal_.

If you are going to carry a gun, carry the good stuff in it. Let all that bullet development since the Miami shootout be your friend. Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, XTP, DPX, etc. No handgun is all that powerful so I at least want enough certain penetration to get to the vital organs even under some extreme situations. When I carry a .44 Special, I use the DPX loads. When I carry a 9mm, I use the Winchester Ranger SXT +P+ 127 grain load. In .357 SIG, I carry the Air Marshal load, Speer Gold Dots, 125 grain JHP's. All of those will "do the job" but remember the story above about the deer!! Unless you get lucky enough to hit the nervous system, mayhem is going to continue after your shots. At least for a few seconds and maybe even for several minutes.

Gregg
Remember that the first rule of a zombie invasion is CARDIO!!!

Dawg 03-24-2010 04:44 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 2241369)

If they were a big guy with a machete, they could chop your head off and lick the blood off the blade before they died themselves!
Thats exactly why the ARMY did away with the issue 38 cal revolver and implemented the 1911 45acp. The Moro warriors during the Phillipine insurrection had a habit of doing just that with their machetes after taking multiple hits. Funny thing is, the 30-40 Krag did not seem much better than the 38.

horseshoe3 03-24-2010 04:46 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 2241246)
To fully respect the limitations and capabilities of a handgun.....take one out and hunt whitetail deer...or any critter of similar size.

Around here (MI) deer are about the same size as humans....150 - 200 lbs.

You can empty a full revolver or magazine (from a 1911) into the deer and unless you hit 2 lungs, heart or central nervous system.....you are going to be tracking for a while.

Even the mighty 44 Mag, at times does not drop deer dead in their tracks unless it is straight through the heart. I've put solid hits on double lungs...and it is still a 100 yard afair.

The only gun I can say that makes deer fall right over on their sides nearly 100% of the time are high powered rifles and slug shot guns.....and the rifle seems far more devestating than the slug gun in my experience.

From my experience - I agree - shot placement is king. I figure in a gun fight....even solid hits are going to still allow the bad guy to fight on for a little while.....

If you can manage 1 of your shots to the head.....try to make it happen.....also try to populate that chest....might catch the heart.....zero blood pressure = quick end.

Gun fights will not turn out like you see on T.V. - think about how it works on deer - and that is as close to reality as I can imagine.
Agreed. And also remember that the deer does not understand what happened. He has no agressive nature and will not be determined to exact revenge on the guy who shot him. A deer just tries to run away or lies down to see if the pain in his chest will pass.

The physical effects will be similar between the two species, but the human will have much more determination to stay alive and try to hurt you.

branshew 03-24-2010 05:55 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 2241608)
Best reason for making sure your side arms carries high cap magazines

T
Capacity is the one department where most .45s come up short when compared to .40 or 9mm in the same platform.

Caliber vs. Capacity

The tradeoff saga continues....

ruprick 03-24-2010 05:58 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 2241449)
....

Then there was the veteran police officer shot once in the stomach with a 22lr and died of shock in the ambulance. Witnesses claim he was screaming over and over, "I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die!" and sure enough he did.....
I do not know if this has any medical validity....but I have prepared my mind - from 2 previous somewhat severe injuries I've experienced.....to keep my self calm and no panic when injured....I noticed the first time I was injured badly - that I felt I was going to pass out....low blood pressure....severe sweating......kind of a restricted tunnel type vision.....I was concerned about shock....so I tried to get my mind under control right away....

The next time I was injured....I kept my head right away...knowing what happened the first time.

I'm not sure if you can prevent shock by being mentally prepared....but I plan on thinking this way if I ever get shot.

Also - I plan on keeping in mind that you can often get shot and easily survive with fast medical treatment....lots of guys in the hood are full of holes...and they lived....

I'd like to hear what others think about this....is there any truth to my thoughts.

Willie Peter 03-24-2010 06:09 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
It's hard to even imagine someone taking 5 rds in the chest from a .357 close proximity and living to tell about it, on the other hand, it's not hard at all to believe one shot from a .22 dropped him, I've read those stories before

Twisted Avatar 03-24-2010 07:24 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by branshew (Post 2241999)
Capacity is the one department where most .45s come up short when compared to .40 or 9mm in the same platform.

Caliber vs. Capacity

The tradeoff saga continues....

13 + 1 is a nice size number

I have yet to hear of someone taking 14 shots of ACP (all making contact) and living to tell the tale.


T

DrillAndFill 03-24-2010 07:28 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Civil discussion of pistol calibers found on Internet?!

I feel as if I'm about to faint ... THUD.

HistoryStudent 03-24-2010 08:29 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Calibers in carry guns Handguns I favor:

Top TWO:

1) .40 S & W JHP - mostly Glocks & Sigs (have others too)
(I have many available 24/7)

2) .45 ACP JHP (Vented Sig 220 & many expensive Colts all tricked out)

branshew 03-24-2010 10:27 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 2242143)
13 + 1 is a nice size number
Agreed. I'd be satisfied with that number. But in the interest of spirited debate - is the basic argument is that for ammo above .38 it's hit quality over caliber? If so then 15+1, 17+1, or 19+1 is more and provides more opportunity for quality hits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 2242143)
I have yet to hear of someone taking 14 shots of ACP (all making contact) and living to tell the tale. T
That's true and "all making contact" is the key phrase. You could hit someone with 14 shots of .38 Spl and they would suffer the same fate in near the same timeline. As others have mentioned, training to keep your shots on target is key, regardless of what you are shooting.

Heimdhal 03-24-2010 10:52 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 2242003)
I do not know if this has any medical validity....but I have prepared my mind - from 2 previous somewhat severe injuries I've experienced.....to keep my self calm and no panic when injured....I noticed the first time I was injured badly - that I felt I was going to pass out....low blood pressure....severe sweating......kind of a restricted tunnel type vision.....I was concerned about shock....so I tried to get my mind under control right away....

The next time I was injured....I kept my head right away...knowing what happened the first time.

I'm not sure if you can prevent shock by being mentally prepared....but I plan on thinking this way if I ever get shot.

Also - I plan on keeping in mind that you can often get shot and easily survive with fast medical treatment....lots of guys in the hood are full of holes...and they lived....

I'd like to hear what others think about this....is there any truth to my thoughts.
Ive heard from many, far more experienced gun slingers than, that this type of thinking can make all the difference. You aint done fighting once the fight is over, espcialy if you took a hit. You might die, but dont ever think you will, and it seems to make a world of difference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrillAndFill (Post 2242148)
Civil discussion of pistol calibers found on Internet?!

I feel as if I'm about to faint ... THUD.

Yeah, well, you...uh...shut up.:111: Sorry, some one had to break the cycle, civil caliber debates are just not allowed, period. I think its a law or something.

And just to zing one at TA.......

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...ank/wallew.jpg

GSM/MM 03-25-2010 01:40 AM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
If/when I run out of quality hollowpoints, I'm more than confident in the stopping power of 45 acp fmj's. Old school and combat proven. Alot cheaper to bulk up on, too. But shtf whose not bringing a rifle to a gun fight?

tulsamal 03-25-2010 11:32 AM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Thats exactly why the ARMY did away with the issue 38 cal revolver and implemented the 1911 45acp. The Moro warriors during the Phillipine insurrection had a habit of doing just that with their machetes after taking multiple hits. Funny thing is, the 30-40 Krag did not seem much better than the 38.
If I was stuck carrying one of those two choices today, I would go .45 as well. Both were low velocity and non-expanding. The .38 was a DA but that advantage doesn't matter much if the cartridge won't do the job with good hits.

As you said, even the rifles had trouble with those people. They were willing and ready to die in order to kill some of us. Kind of like today's suicide bombers without the bombs. And that ties right in with the observations about deer hunting.

Gregg

45 ACP 03-29-2010 10:58 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
And here I thought this thread was about me.

CAVU 03-29-2010 11:28 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 2241246)
To fully respect the limitations and capabilities of a handgun.....take one out and hunt whitetail deer...or any critter of similar size.

Around here (MI) deer are about the same size as humans....150 - 200 lbs.

You can empty a full revolver or magazine (from a 1911) into the deer and unless you hit 2 lungs, heart or central nervous system.....you are going to be tracking for a while.

Even the mighty 44 Mag, at times does not drop deer dead in their tracks unless it is straight through the heart. I've put solid hits on double lungs...and it is still a 100 yard afair.

The only gun I can say that makes deer fall right over on their sides nearly 100% of the time are high powered rifles and slug shot guns.....and the rifle seems far more devestating than the slug gun in my experience.

From my experience - I agree - shot placement is king. I figure in a gun fight....even solid hits are going to still allow the bad guy to fight on for a little while.....

If you can manage 1 of your shots to the head.....try to make it happen.....also try to populate that chest....might catch the heart.....zero blood pressure = quick end.

Gun fights will not turn out like you see on T.V. - think about how it works on deer - and that is as close to reality as I can imagine.
Ever try a head shot? They dont get up and run away. Might not make for a good mount later though.


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tulsamal 03-29-2010 11:38 PM
Re: The Case for the .45 ACP
 
Quote:
Ever try a head shot? They dont get up and run away. Might not make for a good mount later though.
I don't have any mounted deer heads so that wouldn't matter to me. But a head shot on a deer would be iffy. They walk along looking from side to side and bobbing their heads up and down. The brain is about half the size of an apple. Lots of "head" that isn't crucial. Jaw, teeth, upper part of the muzzle, etc. So it is hard enough to hit one in the head from a field position. Then to actually visualize exactly where the brain is and put one right in there? It can be done, I did it once when faced with a deer somebody else had wounded. But it wouldn't be my choice for shot placement.

If you really want to go CNS, it is a lot better to go for the neck. The closer you get to the shoulders, the less it moves as the head moves. It's generally a broad target. The spine is the preferred hit but anything close to the spine will take out major blood vessels. What I did was one year I took a long look at a deer I had already killed to really understand just where the spine is in the neck. The next year I put one right in there with a .223 and 77 grain OTM bullets and it worked perfectly. With that rifle and that deer, I _probably_ could have taken the head shot but it is a bit dicey and I don't like taking chances on game animals. I have the right to kill and eat them. I don't have the right to pointlessly hurt them. A good hunter is always trying for that one perfect shot and then you are done.

Gregg


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